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My mentioning Israel touches a nerve

On April 14 someone posted on Facebook an article from the New York Times reporting that prosecutors were planning to charge Frazier Glenn Cross (also known as Frazier Glenn Miller), the person who carried out the shooting at the Jewish Community Center in Kansas, with a “hate crime.” The poster added that Cross may have been party to the 1979 Greensboro Massacre, in which white supremacists killed five anti-Klan marchers.


I posted the following note: “He also viewed Israel as a model, and asked ‘If the Jews can have a Jewish state of their own, then why can’t we have a White Christian state of our own?’"


Randy Gould, a longtime acquaintance and frequent internet commentator, posted back: “Noel, thought this was important to mention this now...why....”


An exchange ensued:


Noel Ignatiev: Because it will be used to justify zionism as a defense against antisemitism… You can count on Abe Foxman using this incident to highlight the "growing danger of antisemitism" and denounce anyone who opposes or even criticizes Israel. Why has no mainstream figure noted Cross's admiration for Israel?


Randy Gould: So Noel, because of Abe Foxman and the like, you figure, what the hell, let's throw the blood red meat of Israel out there now, rather than dealing with white supremacy...something which is supposed to be a big deal for you. Yeah, that makes sense. As if...And since the media and others are racist toward Arabs and Muslims, you have no sympathy for those murdered by a white supremacist, who I can assure would have no problem with the murder of Arabs and Muslims. Yeah that makes sense, too. Absurd. Of course, we deplore the racist murder of an Arab. Of course, we deplore the media and the State which chooses to ignore it. How many African Americans were killed the same day as the Arab you mention, or the people in Kansas City. They got no mention at all. So do we dismiss the white supremacist who murders white Christians he thinks are Jews., or the hate filled person who murdered an Arab human being in a parking lot because of that. Of course not. We fight all such shit. We don't have to act like the State you criticize. We are better than that. The deal is this. We apply our principles across the board. We deplore white supremacists always. We deplore hate crimes against Arabs and all others equally. We fight and organize against any and all those who figure it is okay to kill, oppress, etc people because of their race, their religion, their ethnicity, their gender, their sexual orientation. We do not pick and choose and rank. We do not use the white supremacist murder, or the Zionist murder of anyone, or the Islamic fundamentalist murder of anyone as an excuse to come up with some ideological point. Human beings are dead because of the hate of a racist, white supremacist bastard...we don't change the subject for some pro or anti Zionist argument. We are not, after all, Abe Foxman. Unbelievable and somewhat sickening and distressing. Three peoples lives are ended in KC, Noel, and you figure the best you can do is point out that Zionism is not the answer to Jew hating today. Give me a freakin can do this any time...and do. Again, Noel, why today....why when the bodies of the dead are still warm, shame on you.


Noel Ignatiev: It is obvious I touched a nerve. Why does someone who opposes all forms of racial oppression object to my pointing out that a white supremacist and judeophobe is an admirer of Israel, and why does he object to my observing that Israel’s supporters use every incident of Jew-hating in the world to drum up support for the most flagrantly racial state on the planet? In Israel people like Cross are rewarded with official positions and have monuments in their names. No wonder he admires the place. Why do you object to my pointing that out?


Randy Gould: I do not object to your making the point. I find it odd that it is the one and main point you have to make in the immediate aftermath of an act of white supremacist violence. I find it odd that at that time, the one thing you come up with is Israel and Zionism. Do you really believe that the fact that Glenn Miller has written of his support of Israel is the single most important facet about him. Perhaps, had you included that in some deeper analysis of white supremacy, white nationalism, or even Sunday's event, I would get it better. But you didn't do that. I do not know why not. I draw no major conclusions from it. I just find it odd, that is all. Yes, I believe Zionism is racist, is reactionary, is an ugly form of nationalism. I have said that , written about it, opposed it in practice for decades. I do not believe, however, that Zionism is the root cause of every evil in the world. I don't know that Zionism is the worst evil in the world. I am not in the habit of ranking evils as numbers one through ten. Is Zionism worse than capitalism, white supremacy, patriarchy, nazism, religious fundamentalism, etc? I don't know and I don't think that is of primary significance. We oppose them all. Perhaps, in some individual situation for some tactical or even strategic purpose someone might think we need to do that (I don't mind you, but someone might). However, even given that your choice at this time is odd. Did your comment touch a nerve, not particularly Noel, although your underhanded attempt to imply that I perhaps support Zionism and the racist policies of the State of Israel does piss me off. It is a red herring and you know it. The reality is that I respond to all kinds of posts on FB every single day. I comment on FB numerous times a day. I commented and responded to the shooting here in KC where I live numerous times. Is there some reason why I can't respond to you. It seems that it is I who have touched a nerve. Noel, I admire and respect you, but you are not above criticism and you are arrogant. I think your last post here make that fairly clear. Finally, Noel If I have missed some more thorough analysis or comment on this particular event from you before this discussion, feel free to point it out to me. I would find that, perhaps, of some relevance.


Noel Ignatiev: There was no attempt on my part, underhanded or otherwise, to imply that you support zionism. The reason I made the point about Cross's admiration for Israel is that you and others had already written about his nazi sympathies and white-supremacist past. But let me turn the question around: Why did you omit mention of his sympathy for zionism? If it was that you didn't know about it, then you could simply have thanked me instead of attacking me for arrogance, etc. Is there something you haven't mentioned?


Randy Gould: I am done with this interaction with Noel. He can deny the implications he has made about me here to his heart's content. I leave that for others to judge. I think I have already answered his last question to me fairly thoroughly. My comment on his arrogance here had nothing to do with his comment on Miller's support of zionism. That was clear if you read what I wrote. It had to do with his comments about me. This debate is of little relevance to me any further. I stand on what I have stated here.


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My mentioning Israel touches a nerve | 3 comments
The following comments are owned by whomever posted them. This site is not responsible for what they say.
My mentioning Israel touches a nerve : Thursday, April 17 2014 @ 12:25 am
From: Randy Gould
Randy Gould Noel, I commend you for publishing the entire interchange,
although as you kmow I take issue with the title chosen (and what I perceive
as the implied suggestion that somehow I think criticizing Israel and Zionism is
a problem. Anyone who knows me, knows my practice, reads my blog, and
other writings knows that is simply not the case). However, no biggie, since
you did print all of our back and forth. Meanwhile I have a question. In a post I
did on my blog SCISSION back in 2011, I speculated on equating Zionism,
Israel, etc with white skin privilege ( sort of Jewish skin privilige). At the time I
wrote, "Some say Zionism is racism. I think a better analogy, a more true
definition, is that Zionism is white (read here, Jewish skin privilege), at least in
Israel. All political argument there is subsumed in the occupation. The left and
right are defined that way. Israeli Jews identify as Jews not as workers.
Consequently, even though, for example, the majority of Israeli Jews deplore
capitalism and espouse socialism, their elected representatives are primarily a
bunch of neoliberal capitalists...and the supposed egalitarian values of the
Zionist state are nothing but a myth...and not just for Palestinians. However,
even though working class, poor, and even middle class Jews are exploited,
because they receive vast material privileges on the back of the much more
exploited Palestinians inside Israel and in the occupied territories, there is no
real struggle for true socialism, egalitarianism, democracy, or even a better
future. Sure, there are flare ups from time to time for some table scraps, but
nothing real happens and nothing real can ever happen until the Jews of Israel
shed themselves of their privilege, until, say Jewish workers understand they
are workers and not "Jews" and join in solidarity with Palestinian workers for
something new and bright in the middle east. As long as the Jews of Israel
continue to define themselves as "Jews" and hold onto their privileged position
not only will the struggle of the Palestinian people be made very difficult, but
their own struggle to rid themselves of exploitation by rich capitalist will be
worth nothing and come to nothing." I realize this is a short and this fairly
simple analysis. I would be curious as th your thoughts.
My mentioning Israel touches a nerve : Thursday, April 17 2014 @ 12:29 am
From: Randy Gould
The only problem I see with your post is that a big hunk of my first response
was not to you but to another posting. Since you left that out(which I
understand) it is confusing. For example, I never thought or stated that YOU
had little or no sympathy for those killed....that referenced other comments
from someone else which do not appear here...and were deleted from my

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